How much separation is required by the tower for a/c taking off and landing?

I was in position and holding on 34 at Asheville, NC (AVL) today, with a
plane on final, me in position and holding, and a 182 in front of me taking
off. Before his wheels left the runway, I was cleared for take-off. I didn't
feel that it was any safety issue on an 8000' runway, but it struck me as
something to ask about here, especially since I was the sandwich meat in the
middle.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

If you report the departing traffic in sight, you can maintain visual
separation, and the controller can use non-standard separation. Another
option is the controller can have you both (or all) in sight, and he
can provide instructions to you to avoid a conflict.

Lynne

Wizard of Draws wrote:
> How much separation is required by the tower for a/c taking off and
landing?
>
> I was in position and holding on 34 at Asheville, NC (AVL) today,
with a
> plane on final, me in position and holding, and a 182 in front of me
taking
> off. Before his wheels left the runway, I was cleared for take-off. I
didn't
> feel that it was any safety issue on an 8000' runway, but it struck
me as
> something to ask about here, especially since I was the sandwich meat
in the
> middle.
> --
> Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino
>
> Cartoons with a Touch of Magic=81
> http://www.wizardofdraws.com
>
> More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic=81
> http://www.cartoonclipart.com

Wizard of Draws > wrote:

> How much separation is required by the tower for a/c taking off and
> landing?

Sometime last year I was purposely flying very fast on final into
Baltimore/Washington when the tower controller called me to ask that I
slow down because he needed 3,000 feet between my IFR Bonanza and the
IFR Tomahawk that just landed and was still on the runway.


--
Peter













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Wizard of Draws wrote:

> How much separation is required by the tower for a/c taking off and landing?

3000 feet between singles. A single behind a twin is 4500. A twin
between a single is 4500. If anything is over 12,500 in weight then
it's 6000 feet. For landing it's the same as takeoff except that when
anything above 12,500 is involved then that aircraft can only be on the
runway by himself.


>
> I was in position and holding on 34 at Asheville, NC (AVL) today, with a
> plane on final, me in position and holding, and a 182 in front of me taking
> off. Before his wheels left the runway, I was cleared for take-off.

The rule is you cannot start your takeoff roll until the required
separation exists. He probably hurried your clearance because of the
plane on final. Having one single chase another down the runway is
common at any busy GA airport. Being 500-700 feet short on separation
is a trivial matter.

Lynne wrote:

> If you report the departing traffic in sight, you can maintain visual
> separation,

No. Visual separation is never used to reduce runway separation.


and the controller can use non-standard separation.

Just what might that be?


Another
> option is the controller can have you both (or all) in sight, and he
> can provide instructions to you to avoid a conflict.

You are thinking of separation that may be required of airborne
aircraft. He was asking about runway separation.

Peter R. wrote:

> Wizard of Draws > wrote:
>
>
>>How much separation is required by the tower for a/c taking off and
>>landing?
>
>
> Sometime last year I was purposely flying very fast on final into
> Baltimore/Washington when the tower controller called me to ask that I
> slow down because he needed 3,000 feet between my IFR Bonanza and the
> IFR Tomahawk that just landed and was still on the runway.

3000 is correct. IFR or VFR is irrelavant.

Newps wrote:
>
>
> Wizard of Draws wrote:
>
>> How much separation is required by the tower for a/c taking off and
>> landing?
>
>
> 3000 feet between singles. A single behind a twin is 4500.

Whoops, should say 3000.

Jeff,
The 'local' ATC station is responsible for airborne traffic and must
provide 'standard' separation but ACTUAL avoidance is always the first
responsibility of the pilot. They may give advisories and often do but it
is only required when conditions permit.

Once traffic has been pointed out to you and you acknowledge having the
traffic in sight, ATC does not need to advise you ever again. Consequently,
there are times when it is to your advantage
not to tell ATC that you have the traffic.

Happened to me once when ATC told me of a KC-10 on short
final to a runway. I said I had it in sight. What I didn't know was that
it was a touch-and-go and not a full-stop. A bit later it filled my
windshield but ATC he don't say nothin'.
Gene

Here are some of the separation rules from the ATC regulations;
http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/ATC/index.htm

The parts below are just a simplification of the basic rules. The actual
rules are quite in-depth and have to consider the actions of the
aircraft involved, the type of flight plan, airspace classification, and
whether wake turbulence will be a factor.


7-2-1. VISUAL SEPARATION

Aircraft may be separated by visual means, as provided in this
paragraph, when other approved separation is assured before and after
the application of visual separation. To ensure that other separation
will exist, consider aircraft performance, wake turbulence, closure
rate, routes of flight, and known weather conditions. Reported weather
conditions must allow the aircraft to remain within sight until other
separation exists. Do not apply visual separation between successive
departures when departure routes and/or aircraft performance preclude
maintaining separation.

a. TERMINAL. Visual separation may be applied between aircraft
under the control of the same facility within the terminal area up to
but not including FL 180, provided:

1. Communication is maintained with at least one of the
aircraft involved or the capability to communicate immediately as
prescribed in
para 3-9-3, Departure Control Instructions, subpara a2 is
available, and:

2. The aircraft are visually observed by the tower and visual
separation is maintained between the aircraft by the tower. The tower
shall not provide visual separation between aircraft when wake
turbulence separation is required or when the lead aircraft is a B757.

3. A pilot sees another aircraft and is instructed to maintain
visual separation from the aircraft as follows:

(a) Tell the pilot about the other aircraft including
position, direction and, unless it is obvious, the other aircraft's
intention.

(b) Obtain acknowledgment from the pilot that the other
aircraft is in sight.

(c) Instruct the pilot to maintain visual separation from
that aircraft.

(d) Advise the pilot if the radar targets appear likely to
converge.

NOTE-
Issue this advisory in conjunction with the instruction to
maintain visual separation, or thereafter if the controller subsequently
becomes aware that the targets are merging.

(e) If the aircraft are on converging courses, inform the
other aircraft of the traffic and that visual separation is being applied.

(f) If the pilot advises he/she has the traffic in sight
and will maintain visual separation from it (the pilot must use that
entire phrase), the controller need only "approve" the operation instead
of restating the instructions.

PHRASEOLOGY-
TRAFFIC, (clock position and distance), (direction)-BOUND,
(type of aircraft), (intentions and other relevant information).

If applicable,

ON CONVERGING COURSE.

DO YOU HAVE IT IN SIGHT?

If the answer is in the affirmative,

MAINTAIN VISUAL SEPARATION.

If the pilot advises he/she has the traffic in sight and
will maintain visual separation from it (pilot must use that entire phrase):

APPROVED.

If aircraft are on converging courses, advise the other
aircraft:

TRAFFIC, (clock position and distance), (direction)-BOUND,
(type of aircraft), HAS YOU IN SIGHT AND WILL MAINTAIN VISUAL SEPARATION.

Runway separation requirements are as follows;


3-9-6. SAME RUNWAY SEPARATION

Separate a departing aircraft from a preceding departing or arriving
aircraft using the same runway by ensuring that it does not begin
takeoff roll until:

a. The other aircraft has departed and crossed the runway end or
turned to avert any conflict. If you can determine distances by
reference to suitable landmarks, the other aircraft needs only be
airborne if the following minimum distance exists between aircraft: (See
FIG 3-9-1 and FIG 3-9-2.)

1. When only Category I aircraft are involved- 3,000 feet.

2. When a Category I aircraft is preceded by a Category II
aircraft- 3,000 feet.

3. When either the succeeding or both are Category II aircraft-
4,500 feet.

4. When either is a Category III aircraft- 6,000 feet.

5. When the succeeding aircraft is a helicopter, visual
separation may be applied in lieu of using distance minima.

NOTE-
Aircraft same runway separation (SRS) categories are specified in
Appendices A, B, and C and based upon the following definitions:

CATEGORY I- small aircraft weighing 12,500 lbs. or less, with a single
propeller driven engine, and all helicopters.

CATEGORY II- small aircraft weighing 12,500 lbs. or less, with propeller
driven twin-engines.

CATEGORY III- all other aircraft.

Gene Whitt wrote:
> Jeff,
> The 'local' ATC station is responsible for airborne traffic and must
> provide 'standard' separation but ACTUAL avoidance is always the first
> responsibility of the pilot. They may give advisories and often do but it
> is only required when conditions permit.
>
> Once traffic has been pointed out to you and you acknowledge having the
> traffic in sight, ATC does not need to advise you ever again. Consequently,
> there are times when it is to your advantage
> not to tell ATC that you have the traffic.
>
> Happened to me once when ATC told me of a KC-10 on short
> final to a runway. I said I had it in sight. What I didn't know was that
> it was a touch-and-go and not a full-stop. A bit later it filled my
> windshield but ATC he don't say nothin'.
> Gene
>
>

Gene Whitt wrote:
> Jeff,
> The 'local' ATC station is responsible for airborne traffic and must
> provide 'standard' separation but ACTUAL avoidance is always the first
> responsibility of the pilot. They may give advisories and often do but it
> is only required when conditions permit.

You're all mixed up here. You are mixing all the separation
requirements and throwing them in to one pot. When you say standard
separation to a controller that always means 1000 or 3 miles(5 miles for
a center controller). At a class D tower the controller is required to
provide IFR separation to IFR aircraft. Usually this is done by issuing
the headings given to them by the approach control that gave the IFR
release. If any aircraft is VFR there is no separation standard. If
they miss you're golden. Traffic advisories are required per the .65.

>
> Once traffic has been pointed out to you and you acknowledge having the
> traffic in sight, ATC does not need to advise you ever again.

ATC may be required to tell you to maintain visual separation. Depends
on if you're IFr or VFR and the type of airspace.

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
>> I was in position and holding on 34 at Asheville, NC (AVL) today, with a
>> plane on final, me in position and holding, and a 182 in front of me
>> taking
>> off. Before his wheels left the runway, I was cleared for take-off.
>
> The rule is you cannot start your takeoff roll until the required
> separation exists. He probably hurried your clearance because of the
> plane on final. Having one single chase another down the runway is common
> at any busy GA airport. Being 500-700 feet short on separation is a
> trivial matter.

My local airport can get busy at times (reasonable amounts of GA, and we
share the airfield with everything up to 767s) but we don't get a lot of
"chasing down the runway". I've had a few "land after"s, but we've got
1,850m of runway and they're no problem (and anyway, it's only an invitation
that one can decline, not an order).

I've not had a take-off clearance when they guy in front still had his
wheels on the runway, but I _have_ had plenty when he was only a hundred or
two feet in the air. And the clearance was always of the form: "Departing
traffic is a C152 [or whatever] turning left on departure; with that traffic
in sight, cleared for take-off ...". I suspect the main thing the controller
needs to be thinking is not so much the formal separation distance, but the
consequences of two single-engine aircraft suffering an EFATO and having to
set down - the last thing you need is a runway with one small "obvious"
EFATO field at the end of it and two aircraft both heading for it at once!
In our case, if you hear the guy in front has a problem and is heading for
the "standard" bit of ground, you probably still have time to abort.

Another poster made the most important point, of course - namely that a
clearance to take off is not an order to do so. Only if you have lined up
under a "line up if able to commence immediate departure" do you have any
compulsion to get your skates on!

D.

"David Cartwright" > wrote:
> I've not had a take-off clearance when they guy in front still had his
> wheels on the runway, but I _have_ had plenty when he was only a hundred or
> two feet in the air.

What they do at HPN sometimes is get two spam cans in position and hold at
the same time. If there's two guys ready to go, and the gap in traffic is
just right, they'll have the first guy "taxi 500 feet up the runway and
hold" as soon as landing traffic has crossed the threshold. While he's
doing that, they'll have the guy behind him taxi into position on the
numbers. When the landing traffic turns off the runway, they'll clear the
first spam can for takeoff, and as soon as he's in the air, clear the
second guy with, "maintain visual separation".

It takes a tower controller who's on the ball, and pilots who follow
instructions, but it can mean getting two guys out in a gap that would
otherwise only allow a single departure.

David Cartwright wrote:


>
>
> My local airport can get busy at times (reasonable amounts of GA, and we
> share the airfield with everything up to 767s) but we don't get a lot of
> "chasing down the runway". I've had a few "land after"s, but we've got
> 1,850m of runway and they're no problem (and anyway, it's only an invitation
> that one can decline, not an order).

Also remember that as soon as the plane flies off the end of the runway
the separation standard disapperars. So what was once 3000 feet goes to
zero.


>
> I've not had a take-off clearance when they guy in front still had his
> wheels on the runway,

Go to any big city airport. You will see jets touching down as the jet
taking off still has his mains on the runway. You will see jets getting
a takeoff clearance as the preceding jet departure is about 5000 feet
down the runway and just starting to come up off the nosewheel.


but I _have_ had plenty when he was only a hundred or
> two feet in the air. And the clearance was always of the form: "Departing
> traffic is a C152 [or whatever] turning left on departure; with that traffic
> in sight, cleared for take-off ...".

He doesn't need to say all that, that's probably why the other guy is
already 200 feet in the air, he's wasting air time. But that happens
everywhere. We have a couple guys here that when they want you to start
a turn early will actually say "when speed and altitude permit start
your crosswind." I just sit there and laugh.




I suspect the main thing the controller
> needs to be thinking is not so much the formal separation distance, but the
> consequences of two single-engine aircraft suffering an EFATO and having to
> set down - the last thing you need is a runway with one small "obvious"
> EFATO field at the end of it and two aircraft both heading for it at once!

A plane has an engine failure is an emergency situation and the rules
don't apply if we then have two on the runway. Been there, done that.


Only if you have lined up
> under a "line up if able to commence immediate departure" do you have any
> compulsion to get your skates on!

Man, that's cumbersome.

On 2/27/05 11:58 AM, in article u_mUd.11119$Ps.4033@okepread06, "J Haggerty"
> wrote:

>
> Runway separation requirements are as follows;
>
>
> 3-9-6. SAME RUNWAY SEPARATION
>
> Separate a departing aircraft from a preceding departing or arriving
> aircraft using the same runway by ensuring that it does not begin
> takeoff roll until:
>
> a. The other aircraft has departed and crossed the runway end or
> turned to avert any conflict. If you can determine distances by
> reference to suitable landmarks, the other aircraft needs only be
> airborne if the following minimum distance exists between aircraft: (See
> FIG 3-9-1 and FIG 3-9-2.)
>
> 1. When only Category I aircraft are involved- 3,000 feet.
>
> 2. When a Category I aircraft is preceded by a Category II
> aircraft- 3,000 feet.
>
> 3. When either the succeeding or both are Category II aircraft-
> 4,500 feet.
>
> 4. When either is a Category III aircraft- 6,000 feet.
>
> 5. When the succeeding aircraft is a helicopter, visual
> separation may be applied in lieu of using distance minima.
>
Thanks folks.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

The answer is 3000 feet between you and the airplane in front of or behind
you.

Tom
"Wizard of Draws" > wrote in message
news:BE4695C1.50B5D%jeffbTAKEOUTALLCAPS@wizardofdr aws.com...
> How much separation is required by the tower for a/c taking off and
landing?
>
> I was in position and holding on 34 at Asheville, NC (AVL) today, with a
> plane on final, me in position and holding, and a 182 in front of me
taking
> off. Before his wheels left the runway, I was cleared for take-off. I
didn't
> feel that it was any safety issue on an 8000' runway, but it struck me as
> something to ask about here, especially since I was the sandwich meat in
the
> middle.
> --
> Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino
>
> Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
> http://www.wizardofdraws.com
>
> More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
> http://www.cartoonclipart.com
>

Tom Inglima wrote:
> The answer is 3000 feet between you and the airplane in front of or behind
> you.

Not always.